Simbin Issues Modding Statement

[TimCollier]

An interesting read....and what are your thoughts on this?

http://www.virtualr.net/simbin-issue...ing-statement/


Mine...well, I could be guilty of borrowing their property to make a mod for a competing sim...but I certainly don't think that converting tracks back and forth between the games is taking money out of Simbin's pockets, unless the conversions are only going one way, away from them. But if you ask me, there's just as many conversions from rFactor/GPL tracks that are being used in GTR/GTR2/Race/GTRevo...so how is that hurting their business?

[Tiemen]

An interesting read....and what are your thoughts on this?

http://www.virtualr.net/simbin-issue...ing-statement/


Mine...well, I could be guilty of borrowing their property to make a mod for a competing sim...but I certainly don't think that converting tracks back and forth between the games is taking money out of Simbin's pockets, unless the conversions are only going one way, away from them. But if you ask me, there's just as many conversions from rFactor/GPL tracks that are being used in GTR/GTR2/Race/GTRevo...so how is that hurting their business?

I dont think it is hurting them. If I wanted to buy GTR2 or GTR Evolution, I would have done that straight away. But after reading and seeing video's I think it issent worth my money so I wont buy it. Converted tracks or cars for rFactor doesnt change that fact at all. It may even help me change my mind after all and still buy the game.

[Troy Dalton]

Interesting comments...

I especially took note of the following:

This is a wake-up call. Things must change now if SimBin are to deliver any new titles on PC, and the change can only start with you dedicated simracers saying “enough” !

This is just the first salvo in an on going war to put the PC out of the gaming business. EA, the self anointed king of all sports sims, has already stopped making some of their most popular games for the PC. Madden, which started out of the PC so many years ago, and the flag ship of a multi-billion dollar company, is longer offered on the PC.

It is clear in my mind that SIMBIN covets the console as well, hence the development of Race Pro and considering how popular rFactor is, it really is no surprise to me. IMHO , GTR/GTR2 are better overall products that rF and they offer more immersion features, such as weather, and real track technology. However, they were poorly implemented in the beginning and instead of improving those aspects, along with a dodgy netcode...they opted for wipers and shiny graphics. Whoop dee doo.

Of course, along comes rFactor and there goes Simbin's market share.

Anyway, I purchased GTR Evo and I'm happy with it, but it is really just Race 07 in GTR clothing. The fact that Evo doesn't have Porsche's and Ferrari's is another sign that Simbin really doesn't give a rip about the PC and its hard core sim community any more. I assume console gamers aren't exactly sticklers for realism, so they're easier to please.

IMO, GTR is going to become the madden of race sims. Never really getting the most out of the product, but just adding a bell and whistle every year or so to keep the revenue coming in.

[Troy Dalton]

My Simbin Rant:

http://780bradford.com/champion/forums/blog.php?b=98

[Tom Cinnamon]

Hmmmm.....what's it all about? Why, trying to make a living like the rest of us. Whether or not converting helps or hurts Simbin, we will never know. The issue is that they have the perception that it is making Rfactor betterusing their work. Let's face it, ISI is basically dormant and the community does the work now including sales, while Simbin continues to develop at some level, has payroll, adverstising and production costs.

Do they covet console gaming? Good Gawd, why wouldn't they. Produce a good game for console and be successful, use that income to hire bigger and better staff, so you can blow customers away with their next release. That is the dream of every small software company. Oh yeah, and make a living.

Being a video game retailler for 15 years, I have seen it all. We got out of the PC business several years ago. All we sell now is "World of Warcraft" and it's time cards. Selling PC games was tough. so many PPL would buy a PC game, take it home only to find it would't run on their PC and then expect us to refund or swap titles. You might say well it is their responsiblity to read the requirements, but some buyers, especially, Mom's and Dad's do not get it! Some games simply controlled like crap compared to their console counterparts. So, retaillers came to hate PC. The shelf life was way too short as piracy was often way to simply accomplished. We got stuck with so much crap that would not sell.

I would not say that a console gamer is any easier to please. You have no idea. The real gamers are done with a title quickly and move on to the next innovation. Like an insatiable thirst for excitement. Sim Racers, as with massive online gamers are a different breed. They are really focused on a genre, while console gamers play a much more varied spectrum of games. Many sim racers, especially the older ones never played other types of games while most console gamers have grown up playing games at an earlier age.

[S.Charlie Gog]

Been doin' this for a loooong time now,worked with both software gaming companies and development companies..Now I'm not calling any one stupid or dense,but I think a few have missed the point -

First off I doubt SimBin is trying to conquer the console,speaking with them on a personal level,they know their "bread and butter" is the PC.Consoles are just the whipped topping for the desert.

Stepping OT for a sec - EA dropped or is dropping Madden because it's gotten "stale".It's the same thing year after year with very little development.Mix that with lower sales year and year and its easy to see why it's being dropped.
What is planned is a "Base Madden" one basic game that can be updated via the internet.Which is,yes,cheaper to make,and yes,cheaper to own!

Back to SimBin -
The point or request that SimBin is making is simply this:
(In my own words lol)Quit releasing poor quality over night converted crap mods! As well as stop modding in reverse.
The second part of that is the more important one.

My theory on modding has always been the same - take something from an older title that was kick arse and move it forward to a better platform.What is happening though,is pure nonsense! GTR-E wasn't even cold yet and people had already converted tracks,and cars to GTR2!
This lessens the over all value of GTR-E. Why go out and pay $20 for GTR-E when I get it for free for GTR2 (which if you don't own GTR2 then that doesnt work but I think you get my point)?

Granted SimBin is not going to go out of business any time soon.They're still pulling in good sales numbers for GTR2.But look at it yet another way:

How would you feel if you developed something.Let's say a chair and table set for a dining room for example.You worked endless hours on perfecting this chair and table set to fit with a dining room.Got it all working properly too,no one fell off the chairs it and all the food sat on the table without sliding off.It takes many hours and a lot of long nights.But you stayed focused and dedicated and worked through it,because you know a lot of people are really going to enjoy having this in their dining rooms.
Then right after you release it someone comes along and puts this table and chair set in a living room or bed room.They don't even put the chairs under the table properly and in some cases don't even have the chairs with the table.
How would that make you feel knowing that after all your hard work,time spent and dedication was basically thrown into something else,because someone,who spent little time,and had no idea how much work went into the original set "decided" it would be better that way?
Personally..I'd feel pretty damn rotten about it. In fact I've had that happen,and I felt pretty damn rotten about it!

They took RACE07 and made it better.If they wanted too they could have just released an expansion for GTR2,but why? GTR2 is fine the way it is AND it's an older game.
A lot of folks at SimBin were expecting to see mods for GTR-E spring up quickly,but instead it's the opposite way.They're seeing half arsed conversion of GTR-E pop up over night for an older title.

No GTR-E isn't perfect,no game is,but it's still a slap to the face to the developers who worked hard on moving forwards.
It's not modding progression IMHO it's modding regression!

I received a personal message from a mate of mine at SimBin the other day discussing this very thing,along with a mass email that everyone involved with SimBin and the SimBin community got.I assured him that VC Evolution WILL NOT support this reverse modding in any way!

A basic "evolution" on modding:
N2K3/GTR/GTL to GTR2/rFactor/GTR-E ok - old titles to new

GTR2 to rFactor ok - Similar ages/formats

GTR-E to any of the titles above NO that is reverse modding and regression


Actually could rant on more,but I think my point,be it loud or quiet,is basically made...and my bood pressure shot up while writing this. lol
It just seems to me,and maybe it's because I'm an "old schooler" from the "old school" of both sim racing and modding,but it seems to me these days the community is so fast to riot over the smallest things..specially when it means something is no longer "free".

These companies no matter who they may be or what they make,make these titles for us to enjoy..seems like the "joy" factor has been lost somewhere in translation and replaced with something that I can't even find a good description for.

[Troy Dalton]

First of all, Madden hasn't gotten stale at all and it's 70 million copies in sales over the last twenty years is a testament to its overwhelming popularity. The NFL is easily the most popular American sport and with EA's exclusive NFL license and its easy to see why the game has sold in the range of 2-3 million copies in the first month of its release. With numbers like that, it's impossible argue that the Madden franchise isn't the most popular sports game on the market. Nevertheless, back in April, Peter Moore from EA Sports announced that the company would no longer support the PC platform for its flagship game. He said that piracy was the primary issue for pulling Madden from the PC, very much like Simbin recently did. However, the real reason for pulling Madden from the PC is the slumping PC market. Total PC games sales only amount to around 14% of the overall gaming market. That's apparently not enough market share even for a multi-billion dollar company.

Anyway, this is where Simbin comes into the discussion, because EA and Simbin have several things in common. They both have a legitimate beef with piracy, neither company has a clue about what to do about, and they have publicly threatened and potentially alienated loyal customers with some very inflammatory comments. That last part is most assuredly by design and not just some knee jerk reaction from a few disgruntled modders. Simbin is much more responsible than that and they know just as well as I do that a verbal threat will do nothing in the way of curtailing copyright infringement. What's even more laughable is the idea that the so called "Community" has any power to leverage against said piracy. No, Simbin made that announcement for a very good reason. It was simply the first salvo in what I believe will be the end of Simbin products for the PC in the very near future.

Troy

[Joe Owens]

My thoughts on this is just thinking logic.
If any company wants to protect thier product,they simply just (C) everything.
But on the other hand if any company leaves thier code open to modding,anything goes and while they are selling thousands of copies of the game[sim] they do not care what people do to have fun.
But most companys are greedy [I could name the most greedy of all but not here].
To sum up if every game or sim was only able to be used as the company wrote it, imho in the 21st century in would not sell.
So the way I see it modding from old to new or new to old is no big deal as it is only possible if all code is left open in the first place.
They say one mans food is another mans poison,i agree with that.
If a company stops writing code for the PC or any other format it is always because it is not making enough money,nothing to do with modding.
Which reminds me of the most famous quote of all "Money is the root of all evil".
Joe.

[Troy Dalton]

That is a very good point Joe.

If Simbin were so concerned about stolen tracks/models, then why do they continue to create a product that is ready made for ripping. Why not just encrypt that files like they did with GTL? Seems like an all to easy solution doesn't it!?

[Joe Owens]

One other point,a few years back consoles like the PS2 xBOX etc,were stand alone machines,but now most have online gaming built in and no way to change or mod anything.
So the consoles are not much different from a PC now and I see the day coming where PCs will be just office systems like they were meant to be.
Also every console works with all code written for it,so the companys are not going to be bothered by customers saying things like "my game runs too slow" or "it dont like my graphics card" etc...etc.
Joe.