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Thread: Passing between classes

  1. #1
    Mike Tyler Guest

    Default Passing between classes

    Originally this started out as part of my four-class post-race report for Denver, but as I started typing I thought it would be a better idea to use it to facilitate a general discussion about multi-class racing and passing. Of course being part of the mod team helps give some perspective on the capabilities of each of the cars and classes, but I also think that my competing at the two extremes of the four classes, in P1 in the four-class series and in GT2 of the GT series, helps more and gives me what I’d like to think is a very balanced perspective of the passing and interaction that takes place between the classes, especially since I’ve often occupied both seats of these types of scenarios.

    First let me start by saying that if you’ve only driven a GT car in competition you’re really missing out because driving a prototype in competition gives you a much broader and I think better perspective of just how different the classes are. Sometimes it’s hard to make the jump from a P1 car into a GT car, but if you have the time you should find a moment to jump into an LMP car and drive it for 15-20 minutes then exit out and jump immediately into a GT car. What you’ll notice right off is that you are basically going to overdrive every single corner entry for a while. Such is the braking power of the LMP cars. The Porsche GT3 is good, very good, but every single LMP car is much better. In a prototype you can leave your braking for the absolute last second, downshift and get the car hauled down and then zip around the corner without even braking a sweat or ever really overdriving the car.

    Assuming the prototype car has a decent setup, even a minimal one at that, when a prototype does get loose it’s usually only at the corner exit because of the torque and reduced weight. Nevertheless the fact is from a slow corner the GT1 cars will generally accelerate better and faster than any other car in the mod. Consequently at a track like Denver the most consistent opportunity for the prototypes to make a pass will be under braking. So it’s not so much that the prototype drivers are impatient as it is that given a particular track configuration as we had at Denver it was just the most natural place to pass. Though I can also understand how it would often feel like a last-second pass attempt, though admittedly there are times when the prototype drivers do cut it a bit too close.

    Regardless of which two classes happen to be engaged in the passing attempt, I think the biggest challenge for any driver in the slower class of this type of scenario is to simply hold and maintain his or her line. Most everyone wants to be a good and conscientious driver, so it’s only natural to want to ‘help.’ But holding and maintaining your line is really the best way to help. It’s that simple, honest.

    If there are any sort of proactive actions that a driver might want to take to help facilitate a pass the actions should really only take place in one of two manners. First, just take a wider line into the corner. As you approach a corner, don’t steer for the apex, but simply enter the corner as though you were going in side-by-side with another car and you are on the outside. The second possible action would be to make a shallower exit from the corner, though this isn’t as helpful as taking the wider line into the corner or as helpful as just simply holding your line.

    Above all else moving to left or right at the last moment to try and ‘help’ with the pass is always a bad idea because by the time you see the approaching car and think about what move to make the fast approaching prototype driver has already decided long before that moment where he or she is going to make the pass. This is just something they have to do because of the increased closure rate. Plus when you think about it, their forward view will always be much better than your rear view, so they are going to see you long before you ever see them

    Personally the only times I’ve ever had any problems passing a car in a slower class is when the driver I’m passing thinks that they need to move over to let me pass. These problems happen because they are essentially making a 50/50 guess as to where I’m going. Yes, there are time’s when it’s a fairly logical assumption where the driver will go, but too often I’ve either witnessed or been involved in an incident where I came up behind another driver who was on the racing line and just as I was about to move to the inside to make the pass the driver moved off the racing line in an attempt to surrender the racing line and wound up moving directly into the path where I was planning to make the pass. And then there’s the classic “which way do I go dance.” I start to go left and the driver in front moves left, then they move right once they see me going left just as I move right because their having moved left.

    The other scenario that happens frequently, especially with these cars, is that a GT1 car will start heading down a long straight and will actually pass a prototype. Like I said before, depending on the track the GT1 cars will generally out accelerate just about any other car in the mod. Fully trimmed out with little or no fuel the all of the GT1 cars will exceed 200 mph, which puts them at just about the same top speed as the P1 cars without boost. The difference of course is in the cornering speeds, that and of course their ability to slow down from 200+ mph.

    Anyway what typically happens is the GT1 driver gets excited about making the pass and completely forgets about making the pass stick come the next corner or even in the braking zone. For the most part the GT1 driver will have to hit the brakes about a full second before the prototype and the fact is they’ll never be able make the car stick as well as the prototype through the corner, so they get to the end of the straight and suddenly they have no where to go. Or they find themselves on the inside and more often than not, not quite far enough ahead to move over and reacquired the racing line. As a result they try to brake hard and brake late and either end up overshooting the corner entry and out-braking themselves into the kitty litter or screwing up their corner exit because of their shallower approach into the corner.

    It’s hard to say exactly what the right thing to do is in this particular situation, but whatever you decide you need to include a thought as to what’s going to happen once you get to the other end of the straight. If your car has the chops to pull clear of the prototype and reacquire the racing line, great, but unless you can put a lot of distance between yourself and the prototype car you’ll need o be prepared for the inevitable re-pass under braking.

    Ultimately the bottom line is that whenever you find yourself about to be passed by a car in a faster class just hold your line and let the passing car worry about it. If you really want to help facilitate the pass of a car in a faster class, and naturally assuming you're not driving a damaged car, you should try to keep any intentional moves to the corner entries or the corner exits. Either go wide on the way in or keep it shallow on the way out, but if you're on a straight just hold your line. Do not move over or try to anticipate what the passing driver is going to do. Hold your line and let the passing driver worry about making the pass. These three things are the fastest and easiest actions you can take to facilitate the pass of a car in a faster-class.
    Last edited by mike tyler; 04-18-2008 at 05:23 PM.

  2. #2
    mufasa3's Avatar
    mufasa3 is offline Philip Brown
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    Nice post Mike.

  3. #3
    Eric S Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tyler View Post

    Ultimately the bottom line is that whenever you fine yourself about to be passed by a car in a faster class just hold your line and let the passing car worry about it. If you really want to help facilitate the pass of a car in a faster class, and naturally assuming your not driving a damaged car, you should try to keep any intentional moves to the corner entries or the corner exits. Either go wide on the way in or keep it shallow on the way out. And if you on a straight just hold your line. Don’t move over or try to anticipate what the passing driver is going to do. Hold you line and let the passing driver worry about making the pass. These three things are the fastest and easiest actions you can take to facilitate the pass of a car in a faster-class.
    Nicely explained Mike, it's tough to guess which side the faster car will pass on.
    I generally brake earlier and use a wide entry so there's no mistaking who's corner it is.
    On the straights I don't weave out of the way, I hold my line and allow them to make the move.
    The faster cars will always be able to get past, unless you hit them while trying to get out of their way.

    Eric S

  4. #4
    Mike Tyler Guest

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    The other thing I forgot to mention is that even if you see a prototype or faster car approaching you quickly from directly behind, relax it's okay. Because unless the driver fell asleep there's a 99.99% chance that the driver is only using your draft to slingshot past. Sometimes it's going to happen pretty fast and at other times it may take a bit, especially when the action is taking place between a GT1 and a P2 car. But in either case, if you're the driver who is about to be passed, just hold your line.

  5. #5
    jham's Avatar
    jham is offline Jerry Hamilton
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    Good comments. I also believe that staying on line and letting the faster car find their way around is the best. However, don't forget that there may be some variance in the line everyone uses; so don't assume everyone is exactly the same.

    Something additional: There is a driver blind spot at the right rear of the production cars (right rearview mirror is not generally usable, at least with my settings without TrackIR). And prototype cars can "hide" on that side. I would suggest a little extra caution when passing on the right, maybe even a quick headlight flash; especially if a pass on the outside of a turn is contemplated.
    blue skies, jerry

    ------------------
    Pass carefully - Driver chews tobacco

  6. #6
    Greg Veres's Avatar
    Greg Veres is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tyler View Post
    The other thing I forgot to mention is that even if you see a prototype or faster car approaching you quickly from directly behind, relax it's okay. Because unless the driver fell asleep there's a 99.99% chance that the driver is only using your draft to slingshot past. Sometimes it's going to happen pretty fast and at other times it may take a bit, especially when the action is taking place between a GT1 and a P2 car. But in either case, if you're the driver who is about to be passed, just hold your line.
    Please, please, please heed these words.

    As one of the LMP1 cars doing a lot of overtaking, I have found myself giving up on the draft of a "slower" class car because I don't trust that you trust what I am doing.

    I want you to hold your line, be predictable and let me make the move. If you do all that, 99% of the time, I will zip by you without impeding either of us.

    If you see me coming zipping up straight at you, trust that I know what I am doing and will pull out of your way before you hit the breaks.

    Generally you guys are doing great! But please heed these words Mike has written.

    Greg

  7. #7
    Greg Veres's Avatar
    Greg Veres is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tyler View Post
    Assuming the prototype car has a decent setup, even a minimal one at that, when a prototype does get loose it’s usually only at the corner exit because of the torque and reduced weight. Nevertheless the fact is from a slow corner the GT1 cars will generally accelerate better and faster than any other car in the mod. Consequently at a track like Denver the most consistent opportunity for the prototypes to make a pass will be under braking. So it’s not so much that the prototype drivers are impatient as it is that given a particular track configuration as we had at Denver it was just the most natural place to pass. Though I can also understand how it would often feel like a last-second pass attempt, though admittedly there are times when the prototype drivers do cut it a bit too close.
    I think there is a great example of this buried in the Istanbul 4 class race replay. Don Fryman, in his GT1 vette, pulled away from my on that long back straight. However, I passed him in the braking zone. I did it being 3 - 4 car lengths behind him when he started to brake.

    To be honest it scared the @$#% out of me when I flew past him on my way to my braking point. But I don't think I impeded either of our lap times. Basically he was hauling himself down in speed rapidly in the braking zone and I was still accelerating when I zipped past him. The closing rate was extremely fast at that point.

    If I get some time this week end, I will create a movie of it.

    Greg

  8. #8
    Greg Veres's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tyler View Post
    Above all else moving to left or right at the last moment to try and ‘help’ with the pass is always a bad idea because by the time you see the approaching car and think about what move to make the fast approaching prototype driver has already decided long before that moment where he or she is going to make the pass. This is just something they have to do because of the increased closure rate. Plus when you think about it, their forward view will always be much better than your rear view, so they are going to see you long before you ever see them
    I still vividly remember my rookie season at VOR a few years ago. I was driving the PCC and we were at Daytona. I had just come onto the banking and a few seconds later, there was Tom Cinnamon in his V8 barreling down on my. It looked like he was coming straight for me. I got very, very nervous and I paniced at the last minute. I swerved to the left (towards the infield) and when I looked in the mirror, Tom has moved left with me. Damn, I better get out of his way!!! I served to the right (to the top of the banking). Unfortunately, Tom had seen me go to the infield and so he stopped his pass on the infield and tried to go high to avoid me. Not a good series of decisions because we crashed with horrifying results. it took us both out. That was 3 years ago, but I still vividly remember it.

    Now if you have watched Tom race, you probably have noticed that Tom likes to draft. It doesn't matter which class of car he is behind, he wants to make maximum use of the draft on that car. The only way this is possible is if the car being passed acts predictably. I didn't act predictably 3 years ago and we both paid the price.

    Greg

  9. #9
    sxty9GTO's Avatar
    sxty9GTO is offline Dan Spengler
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    So basiclly you are agreeing with the fact that, we are all still racing each other. You wouldn't pull over for the guy behind you, so why pull over for the faster class? Let them pick the line.
    GTO - A Device For Altering Both Time and Distance

    NASCAR = He's making a left turn! He's making a left turn! He's making another left turn,.....

    I wonder whats going to happen next?

  10. #10
    Greg Veres's Avatar
    Greg Veres is offline Senior Member
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    Yup.

    When I am driving in the faster car, I want to get by, but I don't want to compromise either of our races or lap times. And as Mike said, the guy doing the passing has a lot more time to make the decision of where to attempt the pass.

    I have seen too many guys go off the circuit trying to get out of a faster car's way. When I am the faster car I always feel really bad when that happens. I start wondering if I did something that forced him off the road.

    BTW, I hope people don't think that us LMP drivers are bitching about the GT drivers. I have had my share of traffic issues, but I think the guys being lapped have been doing a great job when they are getting passed so far. I see this thread as trying to make a pretty good situation even better.

    Greg

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